Lord Flight's Oral Question - Hansard Record

The Hansard record for the exchanges that followed Lord flight of Worcester's Oral Question - 14th February 2012:

Wedgwood Museum

Question

2.51 pm

Asked By Lord Flight

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to legislate, in the light of the Wedgwood Museum case, to prevent the "last man standing" rule applying to the assets of charitable museums and other charities.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, the Government have reviewed this case carefully and believe that it would be inappropriate not to apply this rule to charities. Charities should have the freedom to choose pension schemes that suit their needs. These arrangements can be a useful way of managing liabilities and we would not want to restrict this option for charities. We welcome this opportunity to emphasise that charities should seek appropriate advice before making pension arrangements.

Lord Flight: My Lords, when the Wedgwood collection has been shortlisted as one of the top 20 cultural assets in the UK, I suggest that it is inconceivable that it should be left to be sold off. What proposals do the Government have for rescuing the collection? Secondly, with regard to charities, the DWP had a consultation last year that recognised the problems with both Section 25 and the "last man standing" rule. A further consultation was promised for this year. When will it start?

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Flight that one hopes that the Wedgwood collection would not be sold off. I assure him that the Government have had several meetings with the honourable Member for Stoke, Mr Tristram Hunt, and several other people concerned to find the most effective way to save this very valuable collection, which has been nominated by UNESCO as one of the 20 most valuable sites in the UK. Regarding the final meeting, meetings are taking place at the moment, and I will update your Lordships' House as they go on.

Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, should we not be cautious about reaching conclusions until we have seen the full written judgment? We will then know whether the predicament of the Wedgwood Museum has arisen because pensions legislation was poorly drafted and scrutinised or, perhaps, because the trustees of the museum were poorly advised when they could have placed the collection securely in trust and beyond the reach of the Pension Protection Fund. Meanwhile, I express unreserved appreciation for the way in which the Minister, Ed Vaizey, has kept watch over the whole situation in regard to the Wedgwood Museum, and helped to bring people together so that they can develop plans for the museum's archive and collection to be properly preserved for the benefit of the nation. Finally, will the noble Baroness, who is playing such a valuable role in this, ensure that the Minton Archive is not overlooked?

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has touched on very important points. One is right to be cautious until we get the written judgment, which should come through soon. A difficult situation applied when the trustees were advised. I totally agree with the noble Lord that the Minister, Ed Vaizey, has held several meetings on this matter and has become very involved. The Government have good will in all this and will do all that they possibly can. The Minton archive is very important and is arguably the greatest industrial archive of its kind. I can assure the noble Lord that it has certainly not been forgotten. It is now the property of WWRD UK, the new owners of the Wedgwood Group. The Minister for Culture has spoken to them about this matter. The archive is still safely in storage in Bonhams, which is awaiting a resolution on the future of the Wedgwood collection and the museum before taking any decision about its future.

The Earl of Clancarty: My Lords, does not the Minister agree that it is time that the Government took more control of the Wedgwood situation and, indeed, bought the collection? Appeal is in this sense irrelevant. It could be called the National Wedgwood Museum. As such, it would be a huge asset to Britain and a tremendous boost to Stoke-on-Trent. Surely for £14 million or thereabouts, this ought to be a no-brainer.

Baroness Rawlings: As the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, mentioned, this museum is terribly important for the Stoke area and the Potteries. As regards the valuation that he mentioned, DCMS is working on that with the protection fund but we still do not know what it will be. We hope that there will be a fundraising campaign and the collection will be saved sooner rather than later.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that besides the unique ceramics collections there is also a data archive dating back 250 years of the Wedgwood and Darwin letters, which have great scientific significance? Does she not agree that it is something of a quirk that a quirk of law relating to the financial sector should require us to sacrifice this icon of our industrial heritage?

Baroness Rawlings: My noble friend makes a very good point. The archives and the whole collection constitute a most remarkable collection that has been donated by the family over many years. It would be a disaster should it be sold. The protection fund is a very complicated fund which the Government are looking at in great detail. I will not go into all the details of the pension scheme now but I will write to her with those details.

Lord Cormack: My Lords-

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, may I pursue the whole issue of the "last man standing" legislation with the noble Baroness? I understand that, following the DWP's review of this policy, it was agreed that there would be a further review. However, I gathered from what the noble Baroness was saying just now that this is not the case. Will she confirm whether this matter is under review, because it seems to noble Lords around the House that it is being used and implemented in a way that was never foreseen, is causing charities-not just the Wedgwood Museum but other charities-considerable concern and disquiet, and has consequences for unemployment in the area as well? Therefore, will the noble Baroness clarify the status of the "last man standing" legislation?

Baroness Rawlings: With pleasure, my Lords. We understand that the Wedgwood pension scheme operated on the basis that if any participating employers became insolvent or otherwise stopped sponsoring the scheme, responsibility for the pension scheme fell to the remaining employers. This is what is meant by the "last man standing" rule. As a result, the company of the Wedgwood pension scheme-the museum-became liable for its pensions shortfall. We are awaiting the judgment from the Attorney-General. Then it will be decided where we go to from there.

BBC Coverage (15 minutes in).

House of Lords – the Earl of Clancarty’s Oral Question

From Hansard: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld/ldtoday/03.htm

BBC News item and video footage (go to 15 minute point): http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_lords/newsid_9233000/9233707.stm

Wedgwood Museum

Question

2.52 pm

Asked By The Earl of Clancarty

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will take steps to ensure that the Wedgwood Museum and its collection will be protected for future generations.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, over the past 12 months the Government have provided expertise, advice and funding to support the Wedgwood museum through a challenging time. The Charity Commission has now given consent to allow court proceedings to determine whether the Wedgwood collection should be available to an administrator. The Government will await the court's decision before considering further steps.

The Earl of Clancarty: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does she agree that it is entirely wrong, and not a little crazy, that the future of the magnificent and historic Wedgwood collection—a true national treasure—is threatened by the possibility of a massive debt not to a private company but to a non-departmental government body, the Pension Protection Fund? Have the Government plans to safeguard the collection so that it can remain in its award-winning museum in the heart of the Potteries? Will the Government take steps to ensure that, whatever the outcome of next year's court case, no other collection can be so threatened?

 

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, who has tirelessly campaigned on this issue. We hope that museums will learn from this case and make certain that collections held in trust have legal protection to safeguard their objects. The court will determine whether the collection is available to an administrator and is put up for sale. DCMS will attempt to secure the collection for the nation. As the noble Earl said, clearly this is an extraordinary case. DCMS has helped all along, but it cannot provide further funding.

 

The Lord Bishop of Winchester: I declare an interest as a previous Bishop of Stafford with responsibility for the city of Stoke-on-Trent. Does the Minister recognise that the museum is not only one of the finest ceramic collections in the world—begun by the great, farsighted and humane Josiah himself—but a repository and a monument to the craftsmanship and the labour of Potteries people over two-and-a-half centuries and vital for the self-respect of people in those parts? Can she give an assurance that, if by any chance the court's judgment in January goes against the trustees and in favour of the PPF, her department will do everything possible to ensure a stay of execution, so that there is no rapid dismemberment and selling off, in order that a means can be found to hold the collection as a single entity in north Staffordshire?

 

Baroness Rawlings: The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester is absolutely right that the collection is outstanding. DCMS has been in conversations and has provided money—and is continuing to do so—because the collection is for the whole of the area of Stoke-on-Trent and the Potteries. We realise that this is an extraordinary situation that has unfortunately come about—under the new Act of, I think, 2008—because of the pension fund.

 

Lord Howarth of Newport: Would it not be grotesque if the Wedgwood archive, which is so extraordinarily important for our country's industrial heritage, were broken up, destroyed and sold to raise no more than a small fraction of the deficit in the Waterford Wedgwood pension scheme? While we hope that the court will rule in this case that the collection is inviolate and thus enable the collection to remain as and where it is in the Potteries, will the Minister please say what the Government will do to put in place a regime that will ensure that there is reliable protection in the future for nationally designated museum collections?

 

Baroness Rawlings: The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has been involved with this for a long time. We have discussed this and he is absolutely right that the Government cannot influence what the court will take into account. The administrator is currently in control of the museum's operations and will present the case to the court with evidence from the trustees. We hope that the trustees will be able to put their view to the court as part of the evidence. Timings are difficult, but the noble Lord is right that the museum trust is currently liable under the new pension law for the pension debts of around £60,000. That is tiny compared to the liability of £134 million.

 

Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: On a slightly wider point, can my noble friend the Minister confirm that the £1.3 million of funding that is going directly to the British Museum to run the portable antiquities scheme will be ring-fenced?

 

Baroness Rawlings: I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Bonham-Carter. It will be ring-fenced. The £1.3 million given to the British Museum is very important. I thank her for that question.

 

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, does the Minister acknowledge the overarching responsibility of the department to preserve for the nation not only the important collection at the Wedgwood museum but those of a number of other specialist and iconic museums, such as the Geffrye museum, the Horniman museum and the Design Museum, which are currently under threat from cuts in her department?

 

Baroness Rawlings: I am aware of these other museums and the issue is being looked into at the moment.

 

 

 

The Earl of Clancarty – Oral Question on the Wedgwood Museum Collection

Cross-bench Peer the Earl of Clancarty has put down an Oral Question in the House of Lords on the Wedgwood collection and the Museum, there will be a seven and a half minute discussion – this will take place on Tuesday November 30^th. We will add a link to the Hansard record when it is available.

This is excellent news as it further raises the Parliamentary profile of the Museum's plight, following the Westminster Hall debate last month.